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Topic : Dealer and Coolant
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 Pappasgarage 
Set
Reg. Date : 05/10/2009
Posts : 371
Location : Espoo, snowbird in California, Finland
Posted : 22 Mar 2011 - 23:20   Post title : Dealer and Coolant
 
i went today to my Dealer in San Marcos Ca to get some coolant for my 12000 miles service.
Asked for the Triumph HD4X coolant. The sales person behind the counter told that they
do not use the HD4X and dont keep it. They use for all the liquid cooled mc s and atv s
the Maxima coolanol coolant. so thats that.

 
Speedmaster 2004 in Espoo Fi, Rocket3 Touring 2014 in Oceanside Ca. IBA Finland SS1000
and T-Bird 09 gone
 Author 
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 zolti 
Thor
Reg. Date : 23/03/2010
Posts : 3,126
Location : newcastle , United Kingdom
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 18:40   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: Pappasgarage)
 
after all the gumff in the triumph blurb wonder what triumph US would make of that rofl

 Author 
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,264
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 19:49   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: zolti)
 
FYI. There are two types of anti freeze used today and either will work in the bikes because just about every thing manufactured today uses aluminum in the engine blocks and that used to be the main concern.So you're safe.However,the red,orange,and pink stuff contains silicates which WILL clog up your cooling system.The green and yellow stuff does NOT contain silicates and will not clog up the cooling system.So naturally,that would be the stuff to use.Plus,you can buy either from your local department or automotive parts stores,and for a lot less money.Why pay more when ya don't have to. Dave!!!

 Author 
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 EnGage 
Thor
Reg. Date : 14/07/2009
Posts : 3,155
Location : Grand Rapids, MI, United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 20:02   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: davetac1)
 
davetac1 wrote:

FYI. There are two types of anti freeze used today and either will work in the bikes because just about every thing manufactured today uses aluminum in the engine blocks and that used to be the main concern.So you're safe.However,the red,orange,and pink stuff contains silicates which WILL clog up your cooling system.The green and yellow stuff does NOT contain silicates and will not clog up the cooling system.So naturally,that would be the stuff to use.Plus,you can buy either from your local department or automotive parts stores,and for a lot less money.Why pay more when ya don't have to. Dave!!!


Dave, you have that backwards. Silicates is what has been used for decades - it is the tried and true green anitfreeze. SIlicates work real well, but they get used up fast, which is why the green stuff must be changed often. The newer anitfreezes use Organic Acid compounds and are typically Orange or Red. What Triumph uses is a Hybrid coolant that contains both. The term for hybrid coolants is HOAT and stands for Hybrid Organic Acid Technology.

To make matters worse, there really isn't a lot of color consistency anymore. HOATs are mostly yellow, but Triumph dyes theirs green. More over, some of the Japanese green coolants have no silicates. But, the PINK STUFF DOES NOT CONTAIN SILICATES. It is an Organic Acid coolant.

From this link: Link
However, let's assume the reason you're thinking of a coolant change is because you're changing a cooling system part (pump, radiator, heater, thermostat housing) on a system with a conventional coolant, not an organic acid orange or pink. In that case, don't change to organic acid orange, even if the part you're installing is aluminum. Use a fresh fill of familiar U.S. yellow/gold or green silicated antifreeze.

Edit: Here is Zerex's color chart and it shows what color to use based on the year/make (this is for cars, but illustrates the change).
Green, which was used in all american cares before 1996 has silicates and should be changed every two years.
Yellow is HOAT and what we have (although Zerex might have a different formulation, but this is what I used on my Tbird when the dealer was out of the Triumph stuff.
Orange is OAT coolant and has no silicates

Read the descriptions for the coolants. You'll see the Green is listed as a low silicate formula and the Orange is listed as Phosphate & Silicate Free


Post edited by EnGage on 23 Mar 2011 - 20:18
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 daz 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 12/05/2009
Posts : 7,467
Location :  United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 20:13   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: EnGage)
 

EnGage wrote:

davetac1 wrote:

FYI. There are two types of anti freeze used today and either will work in the bikes because just about every thing manufactured today uses aluminum in the engine blocks and that used to be the main concern.So you're safe.However,the red,orange,and pink stuff contains silicates which WILL clog up your cooling system.The green and yellow stuff does NOT contain silicates and will not clog up the cooling system.So naturally,that would be the stuff to use.Plus,you can buy either from your local department or automotive parts stores,and for a lot less money.Why pay more when ya don't have to. Dave!!!


Dave, you have that backwards. Silicates is what has been used for decades - it is the tried and true green anitfreeze. SIlicates work real well, but they get used up fast, which is why the green stuff must be changed often. The newer anitfreezes use Organic Acid compounds and are typically Orange or Red. What Triumph uses is a Hybrid coolant that contains both. The term for hybrid coolants is HOAT and stands for Hybrid Organic Acid Technology.

To make matters worse, there really isn't a lot of color consistency anymore. HOATs are mostly yellow, but Triumph dyes theirs green. More over, some of the Japanese green coolants have no silicates. But, the PINK STUFF DOES NOT CONTAIN SILICATES. It is an Organic Acid coolant.

From this link: Link
However, let's assume the reason you're thinking of a coolant change is because you're changing a cooling system part (pump, radiator, heater, thermostat housing) on a system with a conventional coolant, not an organic acid orange or pink. In that case, don't change to organic acid orange, even if the part you're installing is aluminum. Use a fresh fill of familiar U.S. yellow/gold or green silicated antifreeze.


This is why i opted for the triumph stuff. It's all too confusing and the only way to be sure you're safe is go with the triumph stuff. Cost me $20, but really how much more is that, especially considering you change it once every 12k at most. And my mech tells me other triumphs spec 24k changes and that i can easily do that with the bird. I didn't just because it's my baby and at $20 every 1.5-2 years is nothing. I'll spend nearly a grand in tires and mounting in that time...why should i chance saving $5-10?! By the way, you can order it thru any dealer via phone aand pick it up when it arrives as i did.

 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
 Author 
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,264
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 20:17   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: daz)
 
Actually,I have it right about the silicates.I used to maintain a fleet of vehicles and had balls with the original red,pink and orange stuff that came in em from the factory,aka "ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY".The problem is in the rust inhibitor or the color of the anti freeze.This part of anti freeze is what controls rust in the system.The glycol part of anti freeze is what keeps the coolant from freezing.Anyways,once we changed the fleet over to the green stuff,all the problems went away.So naturally,that's all I use now.However,no matter what ya use,ya still have to do your cooling system maintenance or you WILL get into trouble,no matter what ya use. Dave!!!

Post edited by davetac1 on 23 Mar 2011 - 20:33
 Author 
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 EnGage 
Thor
Reg. Date : 14/07/2009
Posts : 3,155
Location : Grand Rapids, MI, United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 20:22   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: davetac1)
 
davetac1 wrote:

Actually,I have it right about the silicates.I used to maintain a fleet of vehicles and had balls with the original red,pink and orange stuff that came in em from the factory.Once we changed over to the green stuff,the problem went away.However,no matter what stuff ya use,ya still have to do your cooling system maintenance or you'll get in trouble,no matter what ya use. Dave!!!


Dave - I believe you that you switched from red/pink to green and your problems went away, but YOU SWITCHED TO A COOLANT WITH SILICATES.

Your advice to use green antifreeze is sound, but your reasoning is backwards. Green has silicates, Orange/pink/red does not.

READ the links I posted. Google "antifreeze silicates" and read more articles. They'll all say the same things. Silicates work very well, which is why you didn't have issues with the green stuff. This issue with silicate-based antifreeze is that is must be replaced every two years, but aside from that, it works and works especially well with aluminum.

I know you are at least my age so you have been using silicate-based antifeeze for most of your life like me.

Lastly, the fact that Triumph specifies HOAT coolant means they believe we should have some silicates in the antifreeze. So if you can't find HOAT, then you are better off with Green (as Dave suggests) over pink/read/orange, but because it has silicates.

Post edited by EnGage on 23 Mar 2011 - 20:40
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,264
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 20:40   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: EnGage)
 
Engage: I'll look into it alittle later.You could be right and maybe I did get it backwards.But I gotta do a job in alittle bit so I can't right now.But I will.Fair enough?? Dave!!!

Post edited by davetac1 on 23 Mar 2011 - 20:41
 Author 
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 EnGage 
Thor
Reg. Date : 14/07/2009
Posts : 3,155
Location : Grand Rapids, MI, United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 21:40   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: davetac1)
 
davetac1 wrote:

Engage: I'll look into it alittle later.You could be right and maybe I did get it backwards.But I gotta do a job in alittle bit so I can't right now.But I will.Fair enough?? Dave!!!


Yup, fair enough and I'm trying to be argumentative. If someone takes your advice and goes into a store and asks for green antifreeze that is rated for a motorcycle, they will be fine. If they ask for silicate-free antifreeze, they will be given the pink,red, orange stuff and i'm not sure our bikes are designed to run on that.

 Author 
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 davetac1 
Thunderbird
Reg. Date : 06/09/2010
Posts : 8,264
Location : Haverhill, Ma., United States
Posted : 23 Mar 2011 - 23:40   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: EnGage)
 
OK engage! lol Ya got me on this one and I stand corrected.The green or yellow stuff, [I forgot to mention the yellow stuff in my post lol],does have silicates because of the aluminum composition of the engines and radiators.The other stuff,red,pink,or orange, does not, but can be used as long as it's changed more frequently than the recommended interval.So again,you are correct sir.I did have it backwards.If you've worked on as many vehicles and different pieces of equipment over the last 56 years as I have,you'd be alittle confused too.lol lol

The stuff I've been using in the last four water cooled machines I've owned,plus a number of other different makes and models of water cooled machines I've had the pleasure or displeasure in some cases lol of working on,was Prestone which is safe to use with anything,including motorcycles,and will mix with any other type of anti freeze without consequences.Regarding what the factory recommends,falls into the same category as tires,oil, filters,plugs,etc.meaning that,again,these things are put out for bid.And as long as the bid is reasonable and the product that was bid on is in the ball park of what the factory is lookin for,the motorcycle manufacturers buy and use it in their product.But that doesn't mean that it's right or in the best interest of the machine or whatever product they sell.lol Dave!!!

Post edited by davetac1 on 23 Mar 2011 - 23:45
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 Pappasgarage 
Set
Reg. Date : 05/10/2009
Posts : 371
Location : Espoo, snowbird in California, Finland
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 08:05   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: daz)
 

This is why i opted for the triumph stuff. It's all too confusing and the only way to be sure you're safe is go with the triumph stuff. Cost me $20, but really how much more is that, especially considering you change it once every 12k at most. And my mech tells me other triumphs spec 24k changes and that i can easily do that with the bird. I didn't just because it's my baby and at $20 every 1.5-2 years is nothing. I'll spend nearly a grand in tires and mounting in that time...why should i chance saving $5-10?! By the way, you can order it thru any dealer via phone aand pick it up when it arrives as i did.

I would be glad to use use the triumph stuff if the dealer would have it.

 
Speedmaster 2004 in Espoo Fi, Rocket3 Touring 2014 in Oceanside Ca. IBA Finland SS1000
and T-Bird 09 gone
 Author 
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 daz 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 12/05/2009
Posts : 7,467
Location :  United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 14:34   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: Pappasgarage)
 

Pappasgarage wrote:

I would be glad to use use the triumph stuff if the dealer would have it.


You can order it. Any dealer would have to if you ask or they would have to answer to triumph, and i assure you that will force them to. But just ask to order some and i'm sure they will.


 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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 DizzE 
Thor
Reg. Date : 12/07/2010
Posts : 3,141
Location : Sunnyvale, CA, United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 15:48   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: daz)
 
Yep, the dealer had a qt on the shelf and I carry it in the pony bag, just in case.

 Author 
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 Pappasgarage 
Set
Reg. Date : 05/10/2009
Posts : 371
Location : Espoo, snowbird in California, Finland
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 16:36   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant
 
The issue is that if you took your bike in for the 12000 service you would have to tell them
to put only the triumph stuff in the cooling system, other wise they would put the other stuff
and you would not know the difference. Now how many would tell them to do this if one
did not know?

 
Speedmaster 2004 in Espoo Fi, Rocket3 Touring 2014 in Oceanside Ca. IBA Finland SS1000
and T-Bird 09 gone
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 EnGage 
Thor
Reg. Date : 14/07/2009
Posts : 3,155
Location : Grand Rapids, MI, United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 18:29   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: Pappasgarage)
 
Pappasgarage wrote:

The issue is that if you took your bike in for the 12000 service you would have to tell them
to put only the triumph stuff in the cooling system, other wise they would put the other stuff
and you would not know the difference. Now how many would tell them to do this if one
did not know?


Personally, I don't think it matters. HOAT was designed to last 5 years or 150,000 miles, but Triumph states to change it every two years. Changing it that often means that a standard, motorcycle-approved anti-freeze should work fine. I would just stay away from a pure OAT coolant, which I doubt any motorcycle shops would use anyway.

Post edited by EnGage on 24 Mar 2011 - 18:29
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 daz 
Zeus
Reg. Date : 12/05/2009
Posts : 7,467
Location :  United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 19:45   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: EnGage)
 
Wow, 5 years?! This is one of those things where the truth can never be known. Triumph, the manufacturer of the coolant, and the dealers will all have different stories depending on which agenda is best for them. so between all the BS you can never know. I changed at 1.5 years because when i had the BB kit installed the guy reused my coolant and lost enough of it so that it was very low. Rather then spend the better part of a new quart topping it up if figured i may as well change it. But next time won't be till 2 or more years. Seeing that 5 year quote tho i may go longer. Seems like it should....after all, cars go insane miles on the original coolant today. My honda isn't even scheduled for coolant till i believe over 100k !

 
2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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 Linkdog 
Thor
Reg. Date : 10/02/2011
Posts : 2,604
Location : Groveland, FL., United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 19:55   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: daz)
 

daz wrote:

Wow, 5 years?! This is one of those things where the truth can never be known. Triumph, the manufacturer of the coolant, and the dealers will all have different stories depending on which agenda is best for them. so between all the BS you can never know. I changed at 1.5 years because when i had the BB kit installed the guy reused my coolant and lost enough of it so that it was very low. Rather then spend the better part of a new quart topping it up if figured i may as well change it. But next time won't be till 2 or more years. Seeing that 5 year quote tho i may go longer. Seems like it should....after all, cars go insane miles on the original coolant today. My honda isn't even scheduled for coolant till i believe over 100k !


The wife's Honda Shadow specifies every 2 years.

 
Never drink from a cow with one udder! 2010 1600 Blue&White ( of course ) Long TORS and HP filter.
 Author 
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 EnGage 
Thor
Reg. Date : 14/07/2009
Posts : 3,155
Location : Grand Rapids, MI, United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 20:39   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: daz)
 
daz wrote:

Wow, 5 years?! This is one of those things where the truth can never be known. Triumph, the manufacturer of the coolant, and the dealers will all have different stories depending on which agenda is best for them. so between all the BS you can never know. I changed at 1.5 years because when i had the BB kit installed the guy reused my coolant and lost enough of it so that it was very low. Rather then spend the better part of a new quart topping it up if figured i may as well change it. But next time won't be till 2 or more years. Seeing that 5 year quote tho i may go longer. Seems like it should....after all, cars go insane miles on the original coolant today. My honda isn't even scheduled for coolant till i believe over 100k !


That means your honda has either OAT or HOAT. My Audi take OAT and goes something like 100,000 miles

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 narsisco_lopez 
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Reg. Date : 09/09/2010
Posts : 2,765
Location : Golden (Showers!), Colorado, United States
Posted : 24 Mar 2011 - 20:50   Post title : Re: Dealer and Coolant (Re: EnGage)
 

EnGage wrote:

daz wrote:

Wow, 5 years?! This is one of those things where the truth can never be known. Triumph, the manufacturer of the coolant, and the dealers will all have different stories depending on which agenda is best for them. so between all the BS you can never know. I changed at 1.5 years because when i had the BB kit installed the guy reused my coolant and lost enough of it so that it was very low. Rather then spend the better part of a new quart topping it up if figured i may as well change it. But next time won't be till 2 or more years. Seeing that 5 year quote tho i may go longer. Seems like it should....after all, cars go insane miles on the original coolant today. My honda isn't even scheduled for coolant till i believe over 100k !


That means your honda has either OAT or HOAT. My Audi take OAT and goes something like 100,000 miles


I've said it before and I'll say it again...

HOAT is SO close to HOAX

 
2012 Storm (SOLD!)
Other Bikes:
2003 Suzuki DRZ400E (plated - my dual sport/mountain trail/camping bike)
Past Bikes:
2012 K13S
2009 KTM 990 Adventure
2010 Triumph Thunderbird 1600 (the Alien Queen)
2009 Triumph Sprint ST (another great bike!)
2007 Kawasaki ZX10R
2000 Kawasaki ZRX1100
1975 Honda SB550T "Clubman"
1981 Kawasaki KZ1000J
1985 Suzuki GS550E
1978 Yamaha 650 Special